Scottish Widows Workplace Savings Podcasts

1 June 2026 | Duration: 26 minutes and 39 seconds

Speakers:

Robert Cochran, Workplace Savings Engagement and Innovation Specialist
Pete Glancy, Head of Pensions Policy

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 00:12

Hi everyone, and welcome to the Scottish Widows Workplace Savings Podcast, and it's a retirement report special. Yep, the new retirement report for 2026 has just come out, so friend of the podcast and national pension celebrity and wearer of red shoes, and the report's author, Pete Glancy, Head of Pension Policy at Scottish Widows, has just zoomed back into town to join us and bring this year's report to life for you all.

Before we kick off, a quick reminder that this podcast is aimed at those working in, or interested in, the pension market in the UK. You'll get loads of great insight and informed views, but it won't include any advice.

So, Pete, this must be about the busiest week of the year for you. How's the report launch been for you and what you've been up to?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 00:55

Well, as you say, it's been a hugely busy week. It's always the busiest week in the year, but in addition to launching the report this year, of course, we've had the Pensions Act coming out at the same time, with about five or six really big initiatives that are going to impact on our workplace.

So, it's been a challenge juggling the two things. So we've been out trying to make sure that the report's being well covered across the media, key stakeholders, in and out of government departments in parliament last night with the red shoes, to stand out from the crowd, but also just trying to make sure that we're mobilising with all these challenges that are coming out of the Pensions Act that will keep us busy for a couple of years.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 01:32

Okay, and what about the media pickup? What's it been like so far?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 01:34

Well, we've got great coverage across the sort of mainstream media, the online media, the trades, etc. Radio has been good, regional radio, some years when the news agenda is a bit quieter, we sometimes get on the telly, but I think with everything that's going on in parliament with Keir Starmer, it's just blanking out everything else on the news agenda at the moment, so it's a bit of a shame.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 01:55

Yeah, and what's the key messages they've been leading with?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 02:00

I think for the first time there's a sort of good news message, that we've seen the prediction that retirement poverty has come down, or the prediction of retirement poverty has come down.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 02:10

I like a good news story and we're going to come to that, but all the headlines I saw were around the twelve point two million people who were going to be low, below the poverty line, effectively.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 02:20

Well, that's right, but it's good that you get that headline out there, because when enough people understand the size of the challenge, it's easier to engage them in fixing the problem. So, it's good news indirectly, I think.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 02:31

Okay. Right, before we dive into the content in detail, I just wanted to talk about the format shift. So, a bit of a format shift this year. No actual PDF. I've actually had people contact me on LinkedIn, saying, 'Can I get the PDF? But no actual PDF or physical report this time, and it's been split into two releases. So, tell us about the format change and what the thinking behind that was.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 02:52

Okay, well, I guess you'll know yourself. Pensions historically hasn't been the most engaging subject in the world. You've been a pioneer of simplifying it, demystifying it, make it an engaging, and we wanted to do that with the report as well, introducing things like animation, which you can do…

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 03:07

Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 03:08

…with a PDF. Also, the way that it's set out, it allows us to track the engagement, so we can see which bits are people engaging with, which do they like the most, and then we can do more of the popular stuff next year, so it gives us more, more insight and learning.

The thing about the two of bits of the report. The last pensions commission, if you like, focused only on accumulation, and the first part of this year's report, which we've launched, is doing that same thing. It's how are people accumulating, how are they preparing for retirement.

This pensions commission's going to look at decumulation, how people take their money out of their pension and spend it in retirement, and we've asked the public a whole bunch of questions around that side of things this year. And the second part of the report, which will hopefully put out later in June, will focus on that other area, along with things like artificial intelligence and digital, so it's there's going to be some new elements into the second phase of the report.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 03:56

Okay, cool, that's all up my street, so really keen to see all that. I have to say, I really liked the animation that's built within the report. You know, the way they, you know, the way the graphs all move, and you can focus, and even down the left-hand side, how far down you are through each different report section. It really feels nice and got a fair bit of movement to it.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 04:16

And, of course, they've got a video of me in there. Unfortunately, they couldn't find my good side, but it brings it to life.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 04:21

So, we're going to dive into content, but yes, some nice new innovations in your report, in your video content, have to say. Yeah, okay, let's just talk about the snowball. Tell us about the snowballs. I love that.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 04:35

So, yes, I was using a few eyebrow expressions and hand expressions, I've been told.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 04:40

You were.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 04:41

Very demonstrative.

So, the snowball effect, I think, is a good way of bringing compound interest to life. If you are investing money when you're quite young, the investment growth on that over three or four decades, it's like a snowball going down a hill; it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. I think it's just a neat way of bringing compound investment growth to life.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 05:00

Yep, yep, yep, we had the gamification team in earlier on. We should maybe give them that idea, and they could maybe create an animation that shows that, you know, if you're a five-year-old throwing a snowball, just think how big it could be. If you're a fifteen-year-old, and if you're a fifty-year-old, you just left quite a small snowball at the end. So, yeah, I really liked that.

Okay, so let's dive into the content. There's good news in this report, as you've already highlighted, although, as I say, quite a number of the media headlines were negative, and you know, folks in the numbers who still face pension poverty.

But I'm going to kick us off with the positive, and then you can put the numbers in perspective. So, the national retirement forecast shows that thirty-one percent of UK adults are currently at risk of failing to cover their basic needs in retirement, and that's where that twelve point two million figure came from?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 05:48

Yes, that's right.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 05:49

But that is a significant improvement from thirty-nine percent last year. So, despite there being way too many still struggling to cover their basic needs in retirement, it's a significant year-on-year improvement.

So, why don't you talk us through some of that detail?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 06:02

Yep, so what we do is we survey the six thousand representative members of the British public, we find out about their preparations for retirement, how much they've saved, how they plan to retire, when, how they plan to use the money, other assets that they may have at their disposal, and we try to understand that the costs that they might be facing.

We then use Pensions UK retirement living standards, and we try and map the information from our survey to map the population that we've surveyed against those standards. That's the methodology that we use.

One of the things that we found from the research that we did at the end of 2024, to the research that we did at the end of 2025, which is the basis of this year's report, is that energy costs had actually fallen a fair bit. And when you're older and your incomes aren't as high as when you're working, energy costs, have quite a large impact on your disposable income and your quality of life. So, we had good progress during last year in terms of falling energy costs.

We can obviously see the events in the Gulf at the moment, and there's likely to be knock-on effects on energy prices and cost of living. We'll be tracking that, and we'll report on that effect in next year's report, but for the time being, due to the falls in energy prices last year, there's some good news in there.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 07:15

Okay, and just thinking about what sort of numbers of people are doing all right?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 07:20

In terms of the folk that are doing all right, it's pretty polarised. We've got thirty per cent of people who are going to have a very comfortable standard of living in retirement. There's a small sliver who will have about a moderate standard of living, about eight or nine per cent of folk. There's around about thirty per cent who will enjoy what the Pensions UK call a basic standard of living and retirement, so it's not that great.

You might be able to, you know, eat out once a week, probably not run a car, or certainly any sort of modern car, not going on any foreign holidays, you know, but it's fairly basic, but you're covering the bills. But unfortunately, there's thirty-one percent, that twelve point two million that you mentioned, who aren't going to even have enough to reach that basic standard of living, so it's pretty polarised.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 08:06

Yeah. I mean, looking year on year, you can see that the comfortable lifestyle just remained static, and that's probably partly because that cost of fuel doesn't impact them quite as much, right?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 08:14

Yeah.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 08:15

But down at the lower end, you're seeing that significant improvement, and in fact, in the minimum lifestyle, it's kind of all soaked up into that space, there isn't it? So, you know, good news there, you know, me, I like to have a bit of good news.

So, you then broke it down into a couple of other really interesting kind of cohorts, so you looked at projected outcomes, how they vary across different ethnicities, and this is something that we've come back to, not every year, I don't think, but you've done it periodically, and yeah, I always find it a really fascinating bit of the report. So, what did you take from that?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 08:53

Yeah, there's a few things. I think, if you're looking at the ethnicities, it's not all purely about pensions, because we're asking people about the retirement plans, there are some communities who have more investments than say buy-to-let properties, they do quite well in terms of retirement, so it's not just all about pensions.

There are some communities that are more likely to, where both partners in a relationship have professional jobs, so they're quite highly paid. The white British community, you can see from the report, doesn't fare quite as well, but that's largely because the white British community are more likely to retire as individuals, higher divorce rates, and things like that.

So, if you're living in households with other people, you're spreading the household costs more broadly, so there's a lot more to it than just pensions and pension pot size.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 09:36

Yes, yeah, and you know, if you look at, you know, the groups that have got the lowest amount, right?

You know, with less than a minimum, you're looking at the Indian, Pakistani kind of communities tend to be more likely to live in multi-generational households as well. So…

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 09:50

Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 09:51

Yeah. No, it's fascinating, and I would definitely recommend everyone to have a look at that. By the way, we're going to put the link to the report in the show notes anyway, so it's just a web link anyway.

So great. And then another one that was really interesting, where there's kind of a standout area, it was the geographical spread, right, so there's one area that looks significantly worse than everywhere else, I'm pretty sure I can guess why that is, but go on to tell us a bit about the geographical spread.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 10:19

I think the geographical spread, it comes down to the correlation between having well-paid, full-time jobs and good retirement outcomes. If you're in a well-paid, full-time job with a good employer that has a generous pension scheme for most of your working life, those are the people are going to have the best retirement outcomes. And the areas of the country which have more of those good, well-paid, full-time jobs are the areas that do the best. You can see that London, for example, is quite polarised.

It's quite a lot of people in the top end, and it's got a lot of, a very large number of people in that bottom cohort. And you can see that with the London boroughs, there are some London boroughs that are just really affluent, and other London boroughs are amongst the poorest communities in the whole of the UK.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 11:01

Yeah, and is property coming to that?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 11:04

Property does come into that. If you are in one of those poorer boroughs, you're probably not going to be owning your house outright. You're going to be paying probably high private rents. You might be carrying a mortgage through, but probably a high private renter. And you know, in London, the average rent can be one hundred and twenty percent of the average pension income, so you're probably really relying on benefits, you know, and maybe having to work quite later on in life to try and make ends meet.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 11:30

Yeah, so London's got the highest amount of people that are in that sector or below minimum, and that's I think what you're saying has a large part to do with sort of property, and they're right next door to the southeast, which is the lowest percentage of people across the group who are in that below minimum.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 11:49

Yeah, lots of affluent towns and villages.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 11:50

And equally, the highest number that are comfortable.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 11:54

Yes, that correlation with high, well-paid jobs and people who own their houses predominantly.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 11:58

Yeah, okay, so more really fascinating data that's sitting in there, and what about self-employed and part-time?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 12:05

So, the self-employed and the part-time, they don't fare as well, but that's largely because they're more likely they're not included in auto-enrolment. The self-employed don't have an equivalent of autoenrolment, and because of the earnings trigger, people who are on lower wages may not be in autoenrolment if they have multiple part-time jobs, none of those jobs might have the trigger for autoenrolment, and even if their earnings do get them in, that they're getting a contribution that's based on a part-time wage rather than a well-paid full-time wage.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 12:33

Just to put in figures in perspective here, full-time forty percent of people in full-time work are showing up here as comfortable, so the top-tier, for self-employed is only twenty-one percent, for part-time is only twenty-five So, there's a significant difference there, and that can account for quite a lot of the, I guess, the difference you see when you look at the overall averages. So, how come so many full-time people are sitting in that top sector and so few self-employed?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 13:00

I think we hear this all the time around the pensions industry, but auto-enrolment has been a great policy success, and the industry has implemented it really well, as have employers. And in the main, people are being auto-enrolled, and they're remaining auto-enrolled, they've been defaulted into something that behavioural science said that they would, they would remain in, and that's turned out to be the case. We need something like that for the self-employed, and we need the earnings trigger to come down a little bit to include more part-time workers.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 13:28

And talking about that, moving away from just looking at earnings, the groups who are struggling the most are those vulnerable people and those with poor health, they're almost twice as likely to have below minimum pension prospects. It ties into your findings about the unequal split here.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 13:44

Yeah, so I mean, we find that, you know, around about forty percent of the population have come back through our research and saying that they have either a physical disability or a mental disability.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 13:56

What number did you say that?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 13:57

About forty percent.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 13:58

Wow, okay.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 13:58

And from last year's research, around about twenty percent of people were saying that they had a disability that was to the extent that was preventing them from either working or doing the type of work they'd ideally like to do.

So, when you're not able to work or do the type of work you want to do, obviously, you're not building up that pensions part. And again, from last year's work, we saw that the average person with a disability has costs of an extra eight-hundred pound a month when they're in retirement, so they have the downside of a smaller pension income and the double downside of higher costs in retirement when they get there.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 14:31

Yeah, so it's really a kind of segment that needs some specific treatment.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 14:35

Yeah.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 14:35

Okay, and you've done a whole segment on modelling increased default pension contributions. Again, I have to say it renders beautifully in the web-based report with the animation, just the kind of data display I love. You've broken down this scenario by earnings bands and by age groups.

What were your key findings?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 14:53

So, the key findings there were that if we were able to increase the statutory level of saving for employed people from this current eight percent up to twelve percent, we could reduce the proportion of people in retirement predicted to be in retirement poverty from that thirty-one percent figure that we talked about earlier, we could get that down to just thirteen percent.

Most of the remaining thirteen percent of the people that are outside of auto-enrolment, maybe come back to that in a second, but going from eight to twelve, we could get that headline from thirty-one percent down to just thirteen.

We also modelled, what if we didn't do on everybody's complete earnings? because you know if you do it on total earnings, that's expensive for businesses, it's expensive for households, it'd be expensive for the for HMRC.

If you just did the increase in the first fifty k of salary, you could get most of the way there, get that number down to just fourteen percent. But you would be introducing some complexity to auto-enrolment, which were the success of that is its simplicity. So, there's a question there in terms of which is the best way to go?

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 15:54

And you know, let's be fair, no government is ever going to be in a position where the country is just now cost of living challenges, and I can't see any time in the future, reasonably quickly where it's where a government's going to be able to say, okay, we're going to change this from eight to twelve percent and that'd be acceptable. Guy Opperman was on the podcast, a previous Pension Minister, and he said, there's just been absolutely zero appetite for doing that.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 16:18

I think I think you're right. Politically, a government's not going to do that. We're not going to see it before the next general election, certainly. We have a pensions commission running in parliament parallel at the moment, and it's looking really long-term out into the second half of the century.

And what we probably need here is a very long-term roadmap that nudges the contribution levels up slowly, and it might be that there has to be some qualifying criteria, and I think they had this in Australia, that the contributions only nudge up in years where the economy is performing in a way that has the headroom to allow you to nudge the contributions up very slowly.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 16:50

Yeah, brilliant. And the other thing that I have seen is some really big employers move people up from the lowest tier of contribution, so they might have a tier contribution structure, and they automatically move people up from minimum to medium, and then over the next few years move them up again, so they're getting a higher match contribution from their employer, and people have the right to opt down.

But the numbers who opt down are tiny, so within those kind of probably better paid work, but they're doing that on masse, and that's a way that employers can get behind delivering this for the scheme.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 17:21

Those employers are doing a fantastic job. You could argue that we maybe have an imbalance, and that nationally we've got too much emphasis on wages for today, your pay packet, and not enough emphasis on wages for tomorrow, your pension pot. And I think those employers are leading the way and doing a fantastic job. So, congratulations to them.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 17:38

Yeah, maybe, maybe one for the unions to think about.

And then we've got the section on living for today versus saving for tomorrow. Kind of what you were talking about there, and it was a section I was delighted to add some commentary and colour to this bit of the report, and some of this research really speaks to the richness of the data and understanding the different cohorts in society.

I mentioned the good news, we both kind of mentioned the good news about the fall in pensions poverty, but the section really brings about the fragility of how this has been achieved. So, you mentioned particularly around the energy costs.

So, for a single retiree on the minimum retirement lifestyle, the fall in weekly energy costs from thirty three quid a week in 2023 to twenty-four quid a week in 2024, so was that a nine quid fall? It accounts for half the projected fall in pension poverty, and it was like when I saw that level of detail breakdown, all that improvement could potentially just be wiped out by a prolonged war than Middle East and rising fuel costs. It's a pretty fragile improvement.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 18:41

It is. And if we're going to solve retirement poverty in the future, we can't just think solely about pension pots. We need to have a long-term plan that says, “How are we going to get people's living costs, particularly for older people and people in lower earnings, into a better place?”

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 18:55

Yeah, and it also looks at how the pressure on day-to-day living costs makes it tricky to save and adds to stress, and there was a split here where just over half saying that saving for retirement gives them peace of mind for the future, but then just under half saving that saving for retirement makes them feel more stressed about money today. So, you've kind of got that paradox going on there.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 19:16

I think it's correlated with people's affluence and wealth, the people that have the headroom to save have got the peace of mind that they're doing the right thing in the long-term. Whereas the people that don't have the headroom to save, they can't make ends meet, they're really worried about, you know, can they, you know, pay the electricity bills at the end of the month, so it's tough.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 19:35

And for those that are struggling, you know, some of them say this translates into action with one in ten said they'd reduced what they were saving in the last twelve months due to financial pressures, with a further thirteen percent saying that they had done so, but more than twelve months ago. I mean, but there is some good news that most people haven't found themselves in this position, where they do, they find it hard to start saving again, and this is particularly difficult for vulnerable people.

And the detail in the report shows that individuals with a vulnerability are only half as likely to get back to saving the same amount once they reduce their retirement savings. So there's a recurring theme here about that cohort of the population really struggling.

I looked at the Scottish Widows pension figures, and the government published figures about people opting out or reducing contributions to pension schemes, and the numbers are still reassuringly low, but most likely hyper-focused on those people with vulnerabilities. So, again, that cohorts would be really effective, and that kind of brings me on to the final sections. I mean, there's probably a good bit of a correlation with vulnerabilities in health, so you've got a new section around health saving retirement.

What was behind this been added in?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 20:46

Well, we know that people have got longer working lives, but people's healthy working lives - they're not improving. People are going into retirement increasingly with ailments, and those ailments give rise to higher costs.

People approaching retirement in their fifties, early sixties, that left the labour market due to ailments and poorer health, they're finding it much harder to get back in again.

So, a lot of the work we do in the industry, when we're doing all these sorts of projections, we're assuming that people are making pension contributions for forty years, but just very roughly, when you look at the fact that young people can't get onto the labour market, people in their fifties and early sixties can't get back into the labour market, women are taking a lot of time out for caring duties with children and relatives.

You're probably closer to an average working life of thirty years. So, we need to be helping people have a much longer working career with good employers where they're making good pension contributions. And yeah, the people that are struggling with their wellbeing are just finding it harder and harder to get those good, well-paid jobs.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 21:48

Yeah, your snowball is not going to be as big if it's only thirty years.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 21:51

No, it stopped, it's hitting a bump halfway down the hill, and it's not getting any bigger. Yeah.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 21:55

Don't fancy that. Okay, so finally, what are the report’s recommendations, or what can be done to offer a deeper level of safety net for those most in need?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 22:05

Well, we're trying to keep it simple and plain English, because we'd like the whole country to understand what needs to be done.

If we break it up to employed people and self-employed people, to start with. Auto-enrolments working well in terms of employers have got this up and running, most employees are in, but eight percent isn't enough. If we can get eight percent up to twelve percent it really brings down the number of people who will be facing retirement poverty from thirty-one percent to thirteen.

Most of the remaining thirteen percent are the self-employed. There's about four and a half million of them. If we can create an equivalent of auto-enrolment for the self-employed, will get rid of most of that remaining thirteen percent.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 22:44

And do you have a vision of how that would work for people who don't get regular salaries?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 22:49

Yeah, so we actually did some prototyping with the self-employed last year, working with our colleagues on the retail banking side of the business, because these folks have bank accounts, some people have a dedicated bank account to run their business. Many of them have their personal banking and the business banking intertwined when you're self-employed. And we modelled a proposition that had a lot of flexibility.

So, a bank account, a saving an investment account with short-term access, and a longer-term pension, and we looked at how they might interact together. But the self-employed need more flexibility on the way in and the way out, because often they don't know how much they can put away for the future till they've done their VAT returns and their corporation tax at the end of the year.

And because their personal business finances are more intertwined, they could have bigger calls on capital in the shorter term than an unemployed person is likely to do, so we need to concentrate on both of those things.

The third big recommendation that we have is that even if government and the Pensions Commission were successful in getting those contribution rates up and building an equivalent of auto-enrolment for the self-employed, it's going to be many decades to execute that, and then for it to work right through a full working life for people.

So for many decades to come, we're going to be in a situation where people, primarily in the private sector, won't have enough in their pension fund, but millions of people will have enough when you look at their other savings or investments, and in particular the equity in their homes, and it might be we have to think more holistically and more radically about how we look at all of the assets at people's disposal to help them get through retirement.

Unfortunately, for some people who don't have other assets on top of their pension, we will have to have conversations about them working for longer and about benefits that they might be entitled to.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 24:34

Okay, brill. Was there anything else from the report that we haven't brought out here that you'd want to just highlight?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 24:42

Just to really tee up that we've got a phase two coming shortly with some interesting areas that we haven't explored before. Artificial intelligence, decumulation, very topical.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 24:51

Artificial intelligence, what you're doing about that? Tell me.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 24:53

Oh, well, we're this is a this is a sort of perception survey, if you like. We're asking the public about what they see, you know what they see, what they're worried about, what help they need. And then we're taking the data that they've shared with us to then draw our conclusions, but we've not quite worked through all of the data as yet, so I can't, I can't give you a heads up on the findings. Just the fact that it's a very interesting area for us to be exploring, so.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 25:15

And you've seen that might come out in June?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 25:16

We're hoping to do that later in June.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 25:18

Whoa.

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 25:18

It's going to be a tough job to get through all of the data and do the analysis, and then write up the report, but that's our target.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 25:25

Okay, cool. I'm looking forward to that. Right. Well, Pete, always brilliant to have you in the pod. Love the insight here. And yeah, just a big thank you for coming on. And will you come on...

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 25:35

Very welcome. We enjoyed it.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 25:36

Will you come on when you got part two out in June?

Speaker 2 - Pete Glancy 25:39

If you invite me back, Robert. I'll come back with part two.

Speaker 1 - Robert Cochran 25:41

We'll have you back. Okay, Brill. Looking forward to that. As I say, good to have you on the pod again.

But for now, thanks Pete, and thanks to you all for listening.

We've included the link to the retirement report in the show notes, so dive into the details there. It's really well set out and easy to navigate, and of course you can watch a five-minute video of Pete bringing it all to life for you with new hand actions and imagery that he's created.

Final things. Thank you all for listening. If you enjoyed this one, we'd love you to subscribe to our podcast channel. There's more than forty podcasts available now on all aspects of workplace pensions, and one or two will be released each month. That's all for now. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.

16 June 2026 | Duration: 48 minutes and 1 second

Speakers:

Robert Cochran, Maighread Simpson, Rose Ulldemolins and Amy Rodger

Robert Cochran 00:12

Hi everyone, and welcome to the Scottish Widows Workplace Savings Podcast. And it's time for a gear shift. We're going to revisit a subject that we looked at way back in episode 12. Can you gamify pensions?

That was August 2024, a full 18 months ago. And since then, the gaming team have got into a regular cadence of releasing games and gamifying journeys, and they've now been accessed over a million times. So, I'm really looking forward to hearing about what they've learned.

As a reminder, this podcast is aimed at those in the world of UK pensions, and it won't contain any financial advice. But you might well get some gaming tips.

We're mixing up the guest numbers this time around, and for the first time on the pod, I'm joined by three guests, all young women in gamification of financial services. And I'm going to ditch the full AI intros today, as I'm keen to get into the detail as soon as we can.

So, first up, Maighread Simpson. Maighread, you run the gaming team. Can you tell me what that involves, and a bit about your journey that led you to this point?

Maighread Simpson 01:14

Amazing, and thanks for having us here today. What an intro. So, I'll start with my journey. I think it's what's defined as a squiggly career in industry. So, I have spent the last 20 years – I kind of gasp every time I say that – working in a range of analytical and product roles across industries.

So, the first 10 years were spent working largely in the public sector across the police, NHS, and social work departments. Really, in analytical data teams, trying to use data to help solve public societal problems. And then, around 10 years ago, I think, it was quite a natural transition for me into the world of product. And why it felt so natural was because it brought me closer to the customer, something which I've always been really passionate about.

And since that point, again, I've continued to squiggle across industries, spending time in a small company developing websites and apps for luxury car brands. And then joining Lloyds…

Robert Cochran 02:30

Okay, this sounds squiggly!

Maighread Simpson 02:34

Yeah, squiggly, and it's been really fun. The last seven years I've worked for Lloyds Banking Group. So, I started off within the commercial bank. And for the last four years I've been working in Scottish Widows. So, I think my journey within Scottish Widows is what's led me to my current role, which is most definitely the highlight of my career so far.

So, at the time when we were starting to explore the power of games within the context of pensions, I was also, in parallel, looking at different conceptual work for what the future of engagement could look like. And coincidentally, some of those concepts involved gamification. So, I think at that time, as the team was being formed, my then boss had really identified a great fit between what I was doing and this new emerging area of interest.

I also was heavily pregnant at that time, which was an interesting dynamic. So, at the point when all of this work was really getting going, and I was starting to get involved, I was identified as being a great fit for the team, but was also going off to have my baby.

So that's been a really interesting personal journey, and I kind of looked on with pride, and also a huge amount of FOMO. As the team was mobilising, I was at home with a baby, listening to the podcast 18 months ago.

But then my return, just over a year ago, it's been like absolutely magical, being able to slot in with the team, and then being on what's been an amazing growth journey, where we've learned a lot, but had a lot of fun doing so, and also seen some real impact in what we're building and releasing for customers too.

Robert Cochran 04:14

Okay, you're right, that sounds like a squiggly journey to where you got to today. Quick question, were you a gamer?

Maighread Simpson 04:22

No.

Robert Cochran 04:23

Oh, okay.

Maighread Simpson 04:25

No, not a gamer, which maybe is a surprise to some, but I think what I love is like what sits at the core of gaming, so the idea of creating fun experiences to help solve complex problems, especially when you look at applying it in the context of financial services. I'm attracted to social games, like games that get you having fun with other people.

Robert Cochran 04:52

Okay, we've got two other people to fit in here. Next up is Rose. Rose Ulldemolins, is that it?

Rose Ulldemolins 05:01

Yeah, perfect.

Robert Cochran 05:02

Okay. From Scottish Widows, an engineering lead and the driving force behind the Dundee Tech School, where she's helping build the next generation of digital talent. She's also right at the front of using gamification to boost pension engagement. Rose, brilliant to have you on. Tell us a bit about what you do and your journey to running the Dundee Tech School.

Rose Ulldemolins 05:21

Yeah, of course. So, my career is a little bit different. The majority of my career has been at Lloyds Banking Group, apart from my first ever job, which was selling pucker pies at football matches, which was quite a bit different.

Robert Cochran 05:31

What ground?

Rose Ulldemolins 05:32

The Rotherham Stadium, Rotherham United.

Robert Cochran 05:35

Okay, okay.

Rose Ulldemolins 05:36

Football began there. I’m told. So yeah, so I started in Lloyds in the contact centre, actually, and then I went away to university, and I came back and joined the grad scheme. And then, what they did is they rotated us around different areas, and we learned about different products. So, I covered home insurance, life insurance, and then protection. And then I'm super grateful for this opportunity, but Lloyds then paid for me to get reskilled as a software engineer. So, this was moving from the business side more into the tech field.

I've never looked back on that decision. It's been amazing, and since then, I've always had this passion for reskilling other people and helping them get into tech.

So, from that, I moved around Lloyds a little bit, did a few different engineering roles, and progressed my career. But the whole time I had that passion for helping others break into tech, drawing on my personal experiences, but also knowing, like, how difficult that transition can be.

So, then an opportunity came up to run the tech school, which was sharing my skills and career experiences to support others entering the industry, which was just a perfect role for me.

And then I'm super lucky to say, after the tech school ended, I moved into the engineering lead role for games and gamification. So effectively, I'm the other half of Maighread. She leads on the product and vision, and I focus on the technical delivery.

Robert Cochran 06:49

Okay, okay. And what do you mean the tech school ended?

Rose Ulldemolins 06:53

So, there's been a couple of cohorts of the tech school. So, the first one was more about getting software engineers, not from that background, into tech roles. So, I ran a group of 12 of them, giving them the practical skills to do the job. They now work on the Scottish Widows platform.

However, the second challenge was much broader than that, so that's what we'll come on to, the games and gamification challenge.

Robert Cochran 07:15

Okay, great.

And the final guest on today's show is the person I go to whenever I've got questions about how games work. I'm really delighted to have Amy Roger back with us.

Now officially a PhD in human-computer interaction since her last experience. No more pending status. She's a gamification expert, using behavioural science to nudge better financial habits.

Amy, great to have you back. PhD and all. No pressure. Just remind our listeners what it is that you do and how you apply your unique skills in this space.

Amy Rodger 07:52

Thanks, Robert. Yeah, I do the service design and design research for the team. I'm just one part of an amazing design team.

And my role is basically about shaping how our games work end-to-end. So, I map out the game logic, how the game works, as well as the overall customer experience, so where they're going to go after they play our games, and those behaviour-change goals about how we're going to help people better their future. And then, of course, I test everything before it goes live as well with customers.

Robert Cochran 08:16

Yeah. Oh, I didn't ask you, Rose, are you a gamer?

Rose Ulldemolins 08:20

I am a gamer.

Robert Cochran 08:20

You're a gamer. And Amy, are you a gamer per chance?

Amy Rodger 08:24

Of course, I'm a gamer. Okay, I think I'm carrying that for some of the design team as well, but I'm happy to represent the gamers.

Robert Cochran 08:31

Okay, brill.

Maighread Simpson 08:34

I feel like I’m letting the side down here, aren’t I?

Robert Cochran 08:37

Well, you’ll be playing the team games.

Maighread Simpson 08:38

Yeah, of course.

Robert Cochran 08:40

So now we all know a bit about you. Let's head up to Dundee. When we recorded the first pod, the Dundee Tech School was just kicking off. Or the whole centring of a gaming team up there was just kicking off. Amy, you were still working in Edinburgh.

Rose, do you want to kick us off? What's the tech school? Why is it in Dundee? What is it you're doing up there?

Rose Ulldemolins 08:56

Yeah, of course.

So, as I mentioned earlier, the first cohort was a little bit different, and it was my role to help upskill them into tech roles and give them the practical skills. That was a lot simpler. It was 12 junior software engineers; I've been a software engineer.

And then I got challenged with the second cohort, which was much bigger. Very exciting though. So, the intention of this one was to build two brand new teams, cross-functional, so people like Amy, that are designers, people like Maighread, that look at the product. And then all of our games developers and engineers. And the sole focus of those two teams would be to look at gamification and games within Scottish Widows.

You mentioned Dundee, and that is a huge part of the success. So, it's recognised as the birthplace of the Scottish games industry, behind titles like Lemons and Grand Theft Auto. I know you mentioned that on the last podcast.

Robert Cochran 09:43

Still waiting for the next one.

Rose Ulldemolins 09:46

You’ll be waiting a while, I imagine.

Robert Cochran 09:47

Oh no, it's coming, surely.

Rose Ulldemolins 09:48

And I know in the last one, you did mention, like, how can we compete with the games industry up there? Why would someone want to go from Grand Theft Auto to us? And I'm happy to say we had over 1,000 applicants to the tech school, it was incredibly competitive. And what that's ended up with is an incredible team. Really diverse.

We've got experienced games developers who've worked in the games industry for years, people who studied at Abertay, which is one of the top universities of games development, and then all our incredible designers as well.

The thing that was really special is that we all started together. So, 24 of us, minus Maighread, because she was off, but with us in spirit.

So, 24 of us started in Dundee, and we underwent an intense, seven-week training program, to make sure everyone had the right skills. The training was amazing, right, but the most important part of that for me was all getting to know each other. Understanding how we could work as a team. And also having the opportunity to innovate from day one.

It's made us such a close-knit team. And that's really helped us deliver an impressive amount of journeys in the last year or so, and also really pushing the boundaries of innovation.

Robert Cochran 10:52

Yeah, it sounds amazing. It'd be just an exciting place to be. And Dundee's pretty cool city as well. So last time round, the first games were just coming online, right? So, what's happened since then?

Rose Ulldemolins 11:06

Wow, yeah. So, in the last year and like 18 months, we have released nine gamified experiences. Some of which we've optimised, learning from insight and how they're landing with customers. Four games and a site to host all of our games, too. And I think, sometimes day to day, when you're in the moment and in the detail we can as a team forget how far we've come because within what I've just described and when you go beyond the numbers, actually there's a huge breadth of what's showing up in those numbers.

So, we've been looking on one hand at how you can apply more gamified elements within the Scottish Widows app and some of the learning journeys that show up there, to standalone games like Drive to Thrive, which is quite a different experience. But both are proven to be really great at engaging people in a different way.

Robert Cochran 12:08

So, you've got games, you've got gamified experiences. So probably just clarify what the difference is. Maybe for you, Amy, for sure, you’re the doc.

Amy Rodger 12:18

I think I must, I must go over this at least once a week still. It's the question I'm asked the most. What's the difference between games and a gamified experience?

Simply, a gamified experience is using bits of games in a non-game context. So, we're already setting out to do this stuff. We need to teach customers about this information. We need to get across these complex topics, and we're using elements of games to make that more engaging.

Games themselves are start and end games experiences. And so, we can make those for new things, we can teach while we do it, but they are ultimately and primarily fun. In the app, we are already trying to get this information across, and we're using these bits of games to punch it up and make it more engaging for customers.

Robert Cochran 13:00

Okay, and which ones have you seen the most success with? And what does success look like?

Amy Rodger 13:05

Yeah, it's a really great question, actually. And I'll talk a wee bit about the data and some of the really like promising signs we're seeing.

So, I'll start off by talking about the duration of engagement. So, this is a really interesting one. When you look at financial services web-based content generally, typically people will engage with that for 40 to 60 seconds. And when you look at how long people are engaging with our games, so the likes of Drive to Thrive, we're engaging people for just shy of four minutes on average, which is massive in a world where we know people are always on, and they've got a million and one things to do.

But then, when you actually look beyond that in terms of the people who are then indicating that they want to go on and learn more and engage with us further. So, in the Drive to Thrive game, those that make it to the finish line…

Robert Cochran 14:01

You better explain what that game is.

Amy Rodger 14:02

Yes, that's a driving game, which you can probably tell I'm very excited about. We released that for International Women's Day this year, and you can find it on our game site, the Power Up site, which we will give you the URL for as part of the podcast blurb.

But that really takes people on a journey where they need to avoid barriers and collect things that can boost their confidence. But at the end of the game, we give people the opportunity to learn more about how we, Scottish Widows, can help them navigate the barriers that they, especially women, face when saving for the future. And 80% of people who finish that game, then go on to learn more about how we can help them, which is a really, really like strong metric of engagement.

And when you look at the in-app experiences, I think what's interesting with the data there is that over 50% of people who complete a gamified experience then go on to take action in the moment. And what's especially powerful when you understand the demographics in that context is that women and younger audiences are more likely to take action after engaging with a gamified experience compared to other app features, which are maybe more like transactional than some of the gamified journeys.

Robert Cochran 15:24

Okay, cool.

So, yeah, I mean, I've seen all kinds of really interesting stats coming out of it, and you know, we've seen stats which get shared by the team. You know, what was the average age of a gamer in the UK just now? 47? So, I thought I was interested in that.

So, I thought that stat came from you guys! So, the average age of gamer was 47 and that there was the people that completed the game did bigger pension transfers than people that didn't complete the pension transfer game. So, there's some really lovely insight that comes through.

Okay, so, which probably brings us on to the why. Why is there such a belief in gamification as a tool to help people engage with their pensions?

Amy Rodger 16:10

Yeah, so I think to understand why we want to gamify, you really have to understand decision-making and the importance of decision making in the space.

It basically shapes our professional and our personal lives, but people find it really difficult anyway. So, you're weighing up options, you're trying to predict outcomes, but you're dealing with uncertainty, your own emotions, and sometimes like conflicting information.

And then it gets even harder when you think about how your decisions are going to affect the people around you.

So, with financial decisions, especially long-term ones that we deal with at Scottish Widows, the stakes can be quite high, and there can be quite a big impact on your family.

And then, the challenge is that the results of the decisions you're making aren't felt sometimes for weeks, months, or even years. So, it's harder to link what you did to what happened, and harder to learn from experience. It's not a world where you can make mistakes and learn from that experience very easily, and that's where gamification comes in. So, we can design experiences that start simple and gradually become more challenging and help people build those skills and build a better understanding.

It gives people a way to engage with complex information they might have not been willing to or able to before, without feeling overwhelmed or anxious or scared. and we can design games where we can give you the space to get things wrong, so you can come into Drive to Thrive and crash into all the barriers if you want and take that moment to learn from experience.

And ultimately, like our goal as a team is to help people across the UK feel more comfortable and prepare for their financial future. And gamification is just one way that we can support customers to get started and engage with that journey.

Robert Cochran 17:44

Yeah, I mean, I guess you probably see much to your point earlier on that people stay the journey a bit longer, so they're more likely to complete things and get to the end if it's an interesting and enjoyable experience than just reading through a pile of financial stuff.

Amy Rodger 18:04

Exactly. I think if we're all honest with ourselves. We know that some of our content can be long and potentially boring. And it's not what people want to sit and read on a Saturday afternoon.

But if we can get them to play a game and they take in something, and they learn something, then that's the start that they never would have had otherwise. Sometimes that can be all you need to be able to approach a PDF or a long article, because you have taken that first step into at least engaging with it and removing that fear.

Robert Cochran 18:31

Okay, so that's a bit about the why. What were the how? How do they help? And how do you create them? This must be right up your street, Amy, and I guess yours as well, Rose. In terms of how we actually build that content.

Amy Rodger 18:47

Yeah. So, we always get started with a customer need. An opportunity that we have to help customers. And to teach them something new. To help them with a task that they're going to do. And once we have that…

Robert Cochran 18:58

Give us an example…

Amy Rodger 19:00

So, the first thing we talked about last time we were here, we knew that compound interest is a complex topic, and so we thought that's an opportunity. And since then we've identified other things, like, should I be saving and investing? I have a little bit of extra money -- where should I be putting it? What do I do about all these pension pots that I have? Do I combine them? What do I do with them? Am I insured? Is everything protected? Am I covering myself?

And then, yeah, International Women's Day. Women in retirement. Tax year end. All these different financial moments in your year, we’re there to support with as well.

So, we always start with that customer need. And then once we've done that, we're really trying to think about how we can allow someone to experience this and engage with this in a way that is fun and maybe memorable when they can think about it later. But in terms of the how, I'm sure Rose will be able to cover how we actually go about doing that.

Robert Cochran 19:47

Yeah, because we only see the output right, we only see the fun bit at the end, where you can go along, looks nice and colourful. Things are going up and down. You go, oh great, great. How do you actually get it to that point?

Rose Ulldemolins 19:58

So, one of the ways that we come with ideas is something called a game jam. And you're welcome to come to them anytime…

Robert Cochran 20:04

I’ve been to a game jam!

Rose Ulldemolins 20:05

So, they're really good. And we do them internally and externally.

So, about a year ago now, we actually rented out the whole of the V&A in Dundee. We ran a game jam. It was partly for colleagues that wanted to get introduced to games, and also for university students to come along and had some amazing speakers from the industry. From that, we get really good ideas…

Robert Cochran 20:23

And me, sorry.

Rose Ulldemolins 20:27

Yeah, exactly, industry experts.

And similar to the game that Maighread had mentioned, Drive to Thrive, that actually started from a game jam that we ran with Ada Scotland, to help improve gender diversity in tech. And it was the winning girls’ ideas that we took forward. So, I think that's a really good thing to do.

Robert Cochran 20:41

Probably just one minute on what the game jam actually is?

Rose Ulldemolins 20:43

Of course.

So, a game jam is basically where you get a lot of people together in a room. You set them a challenge. So, Amy's example, it could be: explain compound interest in a game. And then they usually have a day or two to come up with a solution. And then we all present back the ideas as a bit of a judging panel, bit of a vote. And then we decide a winner, which is usually something that we'll then take forward.

Robert Cochran 21:04

Yeah. And just to give an idea of the kind of endorsement in Scottish Widows and Lloyds. I mean, you have pretty senior people come along to them.

Rose Ulldemolins 21:12

Yeah, massively. So, Chira was there for the whole day…

Robert Cochran 21:14

So, the CEO was there for the whole day.

Rose Ulldemolins 21:17

And he was part of the judging panel, spoke about everything that he loved of the day, and he spoke really highly of it. So, the one thing that we've carried on doing is doing that within our team and inviting other people throughout the business to come along and give us ideas. And through that, pretty much every idea we've had has kind of come from this environment of like a game jam, co-creating, and everyone just feeding their ideas in.

Robert Cochran 21:38

I think it's one of the things that set us apart as an organisation, that buy-in from the very, very top, I think you had Amit there as well, didn't you? So, you had like serious buy-in across Lloyds and Scottish Widows that were really trying to change society by doing this stuff.

Maighread Simpson 21:50

Absolutely. It's really powerful that actually. Because what that gives us as a team is almost permission to experiment and really be creative and push the boundaries. And I think with the likes of what we're doing that's absolutely key, like having that culture where we can be creative, we can try things and we learn.

Sometimes things will stick and work really well, but not all of the time. And it's part of how we work. It's absolutely key. Key within our culture and the team.

Robert Cochran 22:20

So, was that you done on the how? So, you've got game jam in there. How does it translate from game jam to appearing in my phone?

Rose Ulldemolins 22:29

There's a long process between that.

So, we come up with the ideas at the game jam. They're what we call the prototype. So, it's quite rough and ready. We show it to people. We get some feedback. And then we actually take it back a step, and Amy will do her research on the game. We’ll show customers different prototypes, see how they interact.

And what we're doing really well at the minute, which I think is because we all started together. The engineers and designers are working together. So, Amy will give requirements. You've got people in the team that will start building it. And then it's really quick to test with customers. Whereas sometimes in tech those two faculties are a little bit separate.

We've also got new technologies that we've introduced. So, industry leading ones that we've had to introduce two new technologies to be able to deliver to the standard of like Duolingo or something like Pokémon Go, for example.

Robert Cochran 23:17

Okay, so we know the headlines of what you've done. Tell me a bit about how people are interacting with these experiences. So, what you're seeing across customers.

Maighread Simpson 23:27

I can go first, and then it would be great to hear perspectives from Rose and Amy on this, too.

So, for me, I think where I get really excited in my job is the days where I get out of the office and get out and about with our games. And I think that environment lets me not only see people play the games firsthand but also gives me the environment where I can have conversations that the games spark.

So, some specific examples that spring to mind that I think have really stood with me is the game providing a catalyst for people to have intergenerational conversations about finance in a world where life is busy and that game is seen as something that's maybe a bit boring or a bit serious.

So, I remember a vivid conversation with someone at an event in London where she was saying that, following playing the game, she was going to go home and share that with her daughter-in-law and her granddaughter to open up that conversation about steps they, as a family, can collectively take to help prepare for the future.

And another one again that came through being out and about with the games was the fact that the game had inspired someone in the moment, a woman, to start investing. So, she there and then opened her first investment product. And that spark had come through engaging with the game, and then the thought process that, that followed.

So yeah, I think. Those are the two things for me, in terms of real change, and the stories that sit alongside that.

Robert Cochran 25:06

So, they were both Drive to Thrive initiated? Which is your game that you built, one of the four games you built within the team. Which are available to anyone, not within the app as such.

Maighread Simpson 25:20

Absolutely.

Robert Cochran 25:21

Yeah, okay, cool.

Amy Rodger 25:22

Yeah, it's definitely quite exciting seeing the data come through, and also taking our games to events and having colleagues play them. We also have lots of customers play them in the lab. I run frequent in-person testing where we put lots of ideas in front of customers. And they're very kind to play some of our scrappy original ideas and give us lots and lots of feedback.

But I think what might surprise your listeners, I suppose. Is that we have a real range of people come into the lab. We don't aim our games at younger people. Despite sort of the thought that gamification or game experiences would only suit sort of students or young adults.

Robert Cochran 26:00

47.

Amy Rodger 26:01

Exactly, 47.

And that's absolutely something that we take into account when we're designing our games, and then when we're testing them.

We're making sure we have great representation in the lab at our events, and then we're looking at that data on the other side as well. And we're trying to think about that when we tackle these big issues, so we can talk a bit about what might be coming next. But we're not only tackling some topics, we're trying to really reach the range. So, people who are really early in their journey, what can we do to help them? And people who are a bit closer to retirement, what can we do in that space?

That sort of gets us to something called abstraction, which we've been looking into a lot recently. So, it's how abstract you can make a game while still communicating some complex information.

So being abstract is like playing a game that is really unlike real life. So, how far away from real life can you go, where players can still understand how it relates back to real life? And we're thinking about that in terms of like where you are in your financial journey.

So, I think that people who are younger, or people who are earlier in their journey, are happier to engage with something that's set in a faraway land or is not quite like real life. They can go into the car, and they can drive and bang into the barriers and collect coins. People who are maybe closer to retirement need something that feels real and feels really close to their real life.

So, we're exploring how we can change how much we abstract our games to make sure that they're suitable for everyone and that everyone can apply it back to their real life without lots of effort to make that transition back. And handling that transition is really important. So, if people are making decisions in a game environment and then applying those to their real life, we make sure they're the right decision and they have all the information that they need.

Robert Cochran 27:36

See, I always learn something new when Amy's around. Abstraction, just great. I’m going to start using that everywhere now.

Rose?

Rose Ulldemolins 27:45

I think the one thing for me is once a game's gone out into the public, that we don't just see it as a one and done. We're constantly analysing that data.

Within a few weeks of Drive to Thrive launching, we'd released two optimisations because we were seeing people struggle with the controls. So, we added a little tutorial in.

Last year, when Amy was on the podcast, she spoke about how to boost your pension. And actually, one of the first projects we did was taking that and optimising it, so we reduced the screens by eight. And the kind of people getting through to the end screen increased from 26% to 52%.

So, you can see how even something that's really good to begin with, still taking that data, analysing it, watching people play it, can create something even better in the future.

Robert Cochran 28:27

Yeah, and you've had two years of tax year end games or gamified experiences going in. And we've had two record years of tax year end premium income coming in, single premiums coming in, people getting their money in, in time, using that gamified experience type countdown timers.

Can anyone talk a little bit about how we changed from one year to another? What things we learned the first year that we applied the second year?

Amy Rodger 28:53

We're definitely happy to take credit for some of that, Robert, yeah.

I mean, in terms of the research, it was really important going from campaign to campaign that we, that we learn and that we do something different. So, I think most of our success in the first year was that it was surprising, and that we caught attention. So, how do you capture that attention again?

We are all so typical for just seeing things and letting them fall into the background and not noticing them anymore. I think my phone has been telling me to do an update, I think, for the last two and a half months. And I just ignore the notification every time it comes up.

So, the more you see something, the less you see it. And so, part of the challenge with campaigns…

Robert Cochran 29:31

Woah, woah, woah, woah… The more you see something, the less you see it?!

Amy Rodger 29:33

Yeah, that's the tagline for today.

Robert Cochran 29:35

Abstraction!

Amy Rodger 29:37

Yeah, so we’re trying to interrupt people, I think, with these campaigns. And that's the biggest challenge, and that's the thing that we focus on first. How can we capture attention?

And then, you know, if we're honest, that most of the advice every year is the same. So, once you get a customer in, you're saying the same things; it's actually in again. So, let's make sure we're doing the same things.

Maighread Simpson 29:57

Yeah, we went into the work this year, like really passionate about the fact that tax year end is for everybody. Like that came through in the storytelling, and then we were also creative in terms of…

Robert Cochran 30:08

Wait, so, what does that mean? Tax year end is for everybody?

Maighread Simpson 30:10

I think, so what we've learned from previous research is that there can be this assumption that tax year end is for the super wealthy. And therefore, a lot of people can just switch off to anything tax year end related for that reason.

Whereas for us I think we were keen to do a bit of myth busting and really bring to life the fact that, irrespective of your income, there's things everybody can do to make sure that they are benefiting and maximising their tax allowances.

So that message was key to what we did this year, as well as trying to have that hook. So that we weren't invisible. And really getting people to come in and understand how they can benefit.

Robert Cochran 30:53

And for those that didn't see it, what was the kind of hook that you had in play?

Maighread Simpson 30:56

Yeah, so we had two things on the go, didn't we? We had an hourglass, which animated. Which was a visual hook, combined with…

Robert Cochran 31:04

Time is running out!

Maighread Simpson 31:05

Yeah, the countdown, that time is running out. So that the closer it got, the more people were motivated to take action.

Robert Cochran 31:17

Not panicked, but motivated.

Maighread Simpson 31:18

Yeah, that's the key thing, absolutely.

Robert Cochran 31:20

Because you were showing them in plenty of time. Because there is deadlines, isn't there? And it's like aligning all of these things properly with deadlines to get your stuff in, in time. It isn't just the tax year end deadline. You've got these other deadlines that you might want to think about as well. So, let's put that information in front of people in a fun way, and it doesn't surprise them when they go, “Oh my god, I'm too late”.

Maighread Simpson 31:39

Yeah, spot on.

Amy Rodger 31:41

Tax year end is a special one. Using that time's running out thing that you get on Ticketmaster, and the like, where you feel like maybe you bought something and you didn't really remember buying it because the timer was on screen. We don't like to use that because it does inherently give you a bit of anxiety and a bit of fear and a bit of urgency to act.

But with tax year end, it is important that you're doing something on time, and so it was really important for us to get that out early, make sure that people had lots of time to act and to read that content and digest it and make those changes.

If we just appeared the day before with that timer, we would be inciting a lot of fear and anxiety. And so, we're really careful about where we use that type of messaging, to make sure we're not reinforcing the type of behaviour that we don't want customers to fail.

Robert Cochran 32:22

And as more and more customers get trapped by tripping into higher rate tax because of the freezing of the tax thresholds, to your point in the beginning, suddenly this affects more people. They can actually make a small contribution to their pension before the tax year end and have quite significant tax benefit off the back of it.

Maighread Simpson 32:43

Absolutely, I think the other thing that's quite interesting in the data is that what we know is that for some people, they don't take action in the moment. But they need to sit with something after seeing our content before then coming back and taking action.

And 50% of people also view our gamified experiences more than once.

So, I think there's something about like planting that seed in a way that resonates and then motivates people to come back subsequently when they're ready to take the action.

Robert Cochran 33:13

And I think to your point, Amy, about things looking different. Rather than just seeing the same thing all the time and then not seeing any anymore, because the app is constantly changing what its home screen looks like, adding in the games, changing through carousels, and all of that kind of stuff. It's a good way to keep people coming back. Yeah, okay, cool.

So, let me ask each of you, what your favourite feature or improvement over the last year has been, and why? And we've already done tax year end.

Maighread Simpson 33:44

Well, you could probably guess what mine is!

Robert Cochran 33:46

Oh, I wonder, does it involve driving and thriving?

Maighread Simpson 33:50

Yeah, I think for me, Drive to Thrive, not only the game, but how we created the game, and…

Robert Cochran 33:58

And the content that sits behind it as well?

Maighread Simpson 34:00

Absolutely. I mean that, that entire experience is probably one that will stay with me for the rest of my working life.

Today, the gender pension gaps sits at 113,000. And the core purpose of the game was really to try and help women realise that there are some small steps that they can take today that can make a huge difference to closing that gap. And to also help them realise that they're not alone. And that we collectively can solve this problem together.

I think combined with that, the thing that I'm really proud about is that, in an industry where in technology typically 20% of teams are made up of women and 80% are men. Whereas for this game, we flipped the script. The team behind Drive to Thrive were 80% female. And that's massive. And I think it's been a key part of the success of that game.

Robert Cochran 35:08

And just on that, I mean. I think, so you've got the game, but you also have all the support that sits behind it, and the support looks amazing. How do you work together to tie all that together?

Maighread Simpson 35:19

Yeah, I think some of it we learn as we go, and it can be quite an organic process.

So, the likes of the Women in Data event, where we showed up with Drive to Thrive at the beginning of March. That was quite an organic thing that came about. So, it's not necessarily part of the plan when you start designing the game, but actually, as you get the word out and more and more people get involved and hear about what you're doing, it's that halo effect that I think is really powerful in joining dots and identifying opportunities.

Amy Rodger 35:54

And in terms of creating it, we have an excellent content designer on our squad. And she did a great piece of work about mapping that metaphor from the game all the way through.

So how do you take customers on a journey from driving a car that – spoilers – does get wings halfway through the game, it becomes a flying car! How do you get them from there to a financial product or a service or a tool? And managing that metaphor and bringing it down step by step.

So, in the page that comes after our game, we still use some of that language. We still are talking about the experience they just had in the game. But we're slowly but surely introducing the real world back into it. And the pages that pick up after that are fully back in the real world.

And that's really important that we handle that carefully, so that people don't be stuck in the game, or on the alternative, get sort of launched back into real life without careful handling. Sometimes a bit jarring as well. But our team take extra effort to do that, and that's why that page is really important.

Robert Cochran 36:47

Luckily, that team's on that, because I don't notice that subtlety. I just go, all right, we've done that, or now here, that's great. But you've guided me all the way through there.

Okay, so Rose, what's your favourite feature or improvement over the last year, and why?

Rose Ulldemolins 37:04

I think there's a couple.

Robert Cochran 37:06

Oh, two? Good, good.

Rose Ulldemolins 37:10

So naturally, I'm going to say Drive to Thrive. Because I love the thought that it started from five female students. I think that's absolutely amazing. It ties together improving gender diversity in tech with helping women with pensions and investments.

And we kept getting the students back in to review it and get their thoughts. And I think that was a really magical experience.

They took us to their university and were sharing the QR code, really proud. So, I think seeing them on that journey as part of it with us was absolutely amazing.

Robert Cochran 37:32

Was that Abertay?

Rose Ulldemolins 37:33

No. So, they came from Heriot-Watt.

Robert Cochran 37:35

Heriot-Watt. Okay, just near where I live. Perfect.

Rose Ulldemolins 37:38

Here in Edinburgh. And we're keen to do stuff like that in future. How can we involve universities?

And then the other one for me is the pot consolidation journey we've got in app. It's performed really well. We've had so many people engage with it.

And it's the first time we lent into more of a game in app. So, the boxes shuffle around, and you have to guess which one. It's a bit… It's still gamification, but it's more on the game side. And I think us testing the water with that has proven to us, we can be a bit more daring in the app as well as the stuff that we've got outside of the app.

Robert Cochran 38:06

Yeah, so, for people that haven't got the app and wouldn't have seen that, so it's talking to you about losing track of all your different pension pots. You've got a number of boxes; your pension goes into one of these boxes, and then it's shuffled around. And then you've got to pick which box you think it's in.

It's a very quick game to play, which is one of the lessons that I guess you've learned, one of the very quick games to play. And then what happens when you click on it?

Rose Ulldemolins 38:34

So, yeah, it's got this really strong metaphor of everyone's got that draw right that's got loads of stuff shoved in it.

When they click the box, they either get a commiserating message, but the point is, it is difficult to find your pensions. We understand that, or they get, well done, you found your pension, a lot of people don't find their pension. And then it talks them through how many missed pensions are out there and how they can find them. So, I think it's a really strong example of how we've kind of pushed the boundary, but it's led to really good results.

Robert Cochran 39:01

And we've got a nice new pension tracing tool going live. Which might be something that Amy's going to talk about, I don’t know. But gaming sitting around that as well, because of what you've learned there, as you just said, people don't know where all their stuff is.

So, Amy, what's your favourite feature or improvement over the last 12 months been?

Amy Rodger 39:24

Yeah, I feel like that metaphor of the box shuffle was a great one. Think it was the first moment that we had where we realised that you could experience a metaphor and that that was better than anything we could say in words. That the moment where all the boxes shuffled up, when we had that in research, everyone was like, "Oh, that's exactly like my house. I definitely don't know where my pension documents are right now. They're in a box, maybe under my bed, and in a cupboard”.

It was instantly relatable to everyone, and everyone had quite the laugh relating themselves to that. So that metaphor was brilliant.

And I think another one was the game we launched last year for Pension Engagement Season. Had that metaphor of lifting weights. And if you try and go to the gym today and lift a huge weight, you're not going to be able to do it, and that's similar with you can't just instantly fix everything today and have a big retirement pot and all that. But it's important that you start. You start lifting small weights and starting to build those that strength.

And again, another metaphor, where like just by playing the game, you're experiencing the point that we're trying to get across, that starting with small weights and building up is better. And I think that beats anything we can say, because it sticks with you that you've actually done it, and you've participated in it in the game.

Robert Cochran 40:33

Yeah, and for, again, for those who've not seen that. So, the campaign for Pension Engagement Season last year was Strengthen Your Pension.

And what you guys did was create an avatar that you could build yourself. Could look like you or look very unlike you. A bit of Scottish Widows branding, if you wanted to wear the Scottish Widows T-shirts and leggings and shorts and all that stuff. And then, trying to lift some weights, imagine trying to lift those weights, you can't do it unless you build up slowly over time and deliver some nice pension messages as you go along. Yeah, really cool.

This year's campaign won't be Strengthen Your Pension. I know what it's going to be, but I can't release it to the pod just now…

Maighread Simpson 41:15

Embargoed.

Robert Cochran 41:15

I'm embargoed, embargoed, yeah, I'll tell you in the green room, if such a thing existed.

Okay, and one final question, sort of the obvious one. What's next? Where are we going?

Amy Rodger 41:28

So, yeah, I mean, I think we mentioned earlier we're playing with abstraction. How abstract can we go? What different topics can we tackle? Can we help people who are closer to retirement? Can we help people right at the start of their journey with budgeting and other sorts of things that are further away from our financial products?

There's so many topics that we can dive into, and how abstract we go, and some of the themes you might see coming in our games to come may surprise some people, but we're really keen to give it a go and see how it goes.

So that's the thing I'm most excited about, and there's a few games in the works right now. I'm keen to see them all go out.

Maighread Simpson 42:03

Yeah, the things that I'm really excited about. So, first of all, on the customer needs side, so Amy acknowledged that we're trying to help people at different moments, that are really significant in terms of decision making. And we know that retirement choices are a big one.

Robert Cochran 42:22

It's the thorniest problem in pensions, isn't it? How you go from accumulation to spending? And how you have confidence in the decision-making that goes along with that, so that you're not panicking.

You don't spend too little of your money because you're scared it runs out, or you don't spend too much so that you run out, right?

Maighread Simpson 42:40

Absolutely.

Robert Cochran 42:42

So, you've got that fixed?

Maighread Simpson 42:43

Well, hopefully, if you bring us back next year, we will be part of a team who are looking to try and make that experience much easier for people.

In parallel with that, another thing I'm really excited about is that, as a team, we're looking at how we create a playbook to really help people understand and apply some of what we've learned over the last two years. And as well as hopefully sharing that within Lloyds Banking Group, we've also got some great contacts within industry that we're working with.

Because there's been a huge investment in games recently, and there's a big movement in Scotland looking at how people can apply games as a force for good. And we're in that conversation, which is, which is really exciting, and one to watch, for sure.

Robert Cochran 43:32

Brill.

And Rose?

Rose Ulldemolins 43:34

Yeah, so you alluded to earlier, and we do have a game coming out that's related to pension tracing, that's going to kind of sell the benefits and also show you how difficult it can be.

I'm not going to give you too many details on it, because it is available for everyone to play shortly. So, I'd love for everyone to go online and actually play it themselves and then let us know what they think.

Robert Cochran 43:52

Okay, I've seen it. It looks great.

And what about your hopes for the Dundee school up there, over the next year? What sort of plans?

Rose Ulldemolins 44:04

I think it's to keep pushing the boundaries of what we've been doing.

When we did Pension Powerlift, we tested like share functionality and that kind of competition. I think each time we do a new game we are pushing that boundary. And I think it's to just keep doing that and keep bringing in fresh new ideas.

As Maighread said, we work closely with the industry up there, but also the universities. And I think it's such a talent of people with these incredible ideas. We'd love to co-create something again that's totally out of the box.

Robert Cochran 44:31

Okay, cool. And Amy, I've got a wee special one for you. Are we ever going to have a Sims-style pension experience where you can go ahead and test out retirement until it breaks?

Amy Rodger 44:41

Until it breaks? Well, you know. Never say never, Robert.

I'm still convinced that a Sims expansion pack for retirement, of course, in collaboration with us, would be excellent. And imagine your Sim didn't need to go to work, and you could just get your money in to do up your house. I mean, I would love it.

I think there's lots to think about with those types of simulation-style experiences. That's exactly where you can go and mess up retirement, and what happens if I spend all my money? And everyone does it. When you get a tool or a calculator. You put in, well, “What if I currently earned a million pounds, and what if I currently earn zero pounds?” Because testing the limits, the very edge cases, are how you understand where you are in the middle.

And so, these simulations can be really powerful, but of course, there's lots to think about, and I'm sure Rose is thinking, "Please don't commit us to the science expansion pack!” But they're very big types of simulation games, because they have to suit everyone.

So, something we're thinking about. How we can capture that spirit in some of our experiences to come?

Robert Cochran 45:37

Yeah, yeah, I mean, once you've got AI coming into play as well. So, it should become easier to do that stuff. And is AI impacting in the gaming world?

Maighread Simpson 45:47

Yeah, I'd say it's very topical across industry at the moment.

So, we're understanding, I guess, how it can help us work more efficiently and effectively. But also, what it means for how our games show up to customers.

So, I think watch this space on that one too, because it’s something we're actively thinking on, and we'll be looking to experiment with over the next six to 12 months, for sure.

Robert Cochran 46:10

Okay, brill.

Right, all of you, that's been brilliant, having you on. Now, is there anything that you feel that you would really like to have got out today that we've not discussed? Anything burning?

Amy Rodger 46:23

Play our games, please!

Maighread Simpson 46:25

Yeah, that’s a good one. A good plug, Amy. I like that.

Robert Cochran 46:27

Just say again, where you'll find them. Where can people search?

Maighread Simpson 46:32

So, powerup.scottishwidows.co.uk.

Robert Cochran 46:37

We'll put the link in the notes for the podcast. So, they'll go there.

So, Maighread, Rose, Amy, thanks so much for joining the pod.

It's been brilliant to see the progress of rapid delivery of cool gamified experiences, and the data to back it up. And the thinking and testing that goes into it all.

So, thank you all for taking the time to come on today. And tell me you do promise to come back again and share the next evolutions.

Maighread Simpson 47:04

Absolutely, of course.

Rose Ulldemolins 47:06

When we’ve got Sims ready, we’ll come back.

Robert Cochran 47:07

You won't need to come in person. We'll just do the pod in Sims.

Okay. So, finally, it's just down to me to thank you, the listeners, for joining us today. I hope you found this as genuinely exciting as me, and if you like the content, please subscribe to the podcast, and you'll never miss an episode.

And, of course, have a look in the back catalogue. This year on the tech theme, we've covered how both customers and schemes are using AI. And we've heard from our CEO and big-time gamer, Chira Barua, as well as ex-Pension Minister, Guy Opperman. So, plenty to get your teeth into

But for now, it just remains for me to do a final thank you to our guests, and of course, you all for listening. Until next time.